Socialism is a reaction to capitalism…not an integration of the two. Profit is not the problem, the problem is excess costs in ratio to individual incomes simultaneously created. An integration of capitalism and socialism includes and evolves them both so as to create a third distinct entity/theory of Distributism where a nature and abundance reflecting profit making system is integrated with the perfectly correct intention of socialism which is economic democracy. This is done by integrating monetary grace/gifting into the economic and monetary systems via a universal dividend and price deflationary discount. These Dual mechanisms would immediately resolve the Dual most persistent problems of advanced economies a chronic scarcity of individual incomes and systemic inflation….instead of taking 150+ years of reform and reaction to each other which has plunked us down into what?….mountains of Debt everywhere the eye turns, austerity and poverty amidst plentiful capability to produce and a general systemic and individual funk of cynicism, hopelessness, apathy and blindness….because we don’t START with ideas/paradigms/philosophy and then proceed from there with aligned and reflective policies that would IMMEDIATELY and actually effect more of the a priori philosophical intention in the temporal universe…than 150+ years of either capitalism or socialism even ever dreamed of creating.

If philosophy/ideas/natural metaphysics is bunk to anyone…then they should bow their heads in apathy and despair and let the resulting conflict ridden and reactionary way of force take its course. Those who know the power of ideas/paradigms and the integrative process that is human wisdom will I suppose have to bring them along kicking and screaming.

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Bob:  From what I have gleaned from the discussions of Social Credit, which seem to flood most of the threads in our list-serve, it is a system that argues for change within the capitalist milieu, so, yes, it is not compatible with socialism, since socialism should, theoretically, support money as a public utility. But as a I said, real monetary reform is about sovereignty.

Me:  Sovereignty is about power. Historically, both capitalism and socialism have proven to be about power, that is true. The real question is are we going to continue on obsessing about, reacting to and utilizing power only,….or try the integrative process of human wisdom instead…after which of course power and control will still be around, but if a philosophy of grace/gifting and its aligned policies are implemented perhaps the world’s peoples, freed from the coercive necessity to be employed when employment is neither forthcoming nor an actual solution to the deepest problems of the economy…might say “go to hell” to the pols and anyone else who tries to destroy such system???

Me:   If Keynesianism didn’t stabilize and solve the problem the last time around when America was the only nation left with its productive capacity intact after WW II…how is it going to be up to the job now when the underlying problem of cost inflation still exists and erodes profits and purchasing power, and innovation and AI are only getting started with their disruptive downward effects on individual incomes as well? We’re way behind the curve with such retread of old orthodoxy. As I have said I’m certainly not against infrastructure renewal, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking palliatives are solutions. That’s not realism. We require a new vision, a more integrated and unifying vision and more accurately targeted policies that SOLVE the actual problems we face.

I’m sorry, but “quite aside from socred” is palliation and reasonableness in the face an unethical system that has been palliated way too long already. We don’t have the time to dilly dally.

Why not visualize monetary grace/gifting and its aligned, concrete and implementable policies along with Public Banking….and begin a mass movement that will truly resonate with both the individual and the vast majority of the business community….and solve the problem???

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Me:  Have no problem with money for infrastructure, especially if it is of the MMT type non-interest bearing and “just sitting there, not ever being paid back” type of non-debt…debt. After all MMT is Social Credit/monetary gifting for the government. But let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that resolves all of our monetary and economic problems, and “non-debt, debt”? Funny how hard it is to get one’s mind unconditioned/de-programmed from the paradigm, the very idea of Debt ITSELF.

The best part of the video was when he mentioned that 50% of the costs of Debts as in Loans was interest costs, most of which is paid toward the front end of the loan. That’s a lot of extra costs to repay…on top of original financing. And what about the other costs tacked onto that like the costs of replacing capital equipment and facilities in an ongoing fashion? What about profit-savings-rent as extractions from the circular flow? Or re-investment of these? Waste? Tidy, very tidy sum there. But forget about all of those other costs, what if every month retailers discounted their prices to consumers….just for the 50% of the interest cost of every item???

That would be Social Credit/Gifting….for the individual. And then we could proceed together into the satisfyingly abundant, leisurely free, self determined, hopeful, rational and self actualizing future that technology and AI are trying to give us….if economists would ever get their heads out of the paradigm of Debt ONLY.

Like consciousness itself Ideas/Paradigms are a priori to structures and hence much more powerful as causes/in their causative effects. Economists and money reformers, being thoroughly modern in their scientistic biases almost always overlook this fact. Am I reverting to supernaturalism and religion here? No. I’m ascending to NATURAL metaphysics, i.e. spirituality where the idea/paradigm is contemplated and consequently understood/experienced as the primary reality that, if thoroughly integrated, in fact encompasses and includes the seeming duality of the physical universe and also has the power to re-shape minds and transform the outmoded and inadequate ideational basis of current structures by aligning them with adequate, more conscious, more integrated and consequently more unified and wise.

In fact my Trinity-Unity/Wisdom/Consciousness/Self Awareness/Grace Formula was in fact reversed/inverted in its expression and description…at least when it is concerning humans themselves and the ideas/paradigms they live with and can also self create. And so it should be written with the resolving/unifying/transforming trinitarian factor first like this:

[Paradigm of Monetary Grace/Gifting X (Debt ONLY X Loan ONLY)

and described as:

A unifying-resolving-transformative Trinity encompassing an integrated Duality

Actually it can be worded/structured either way as when one is addressing strictly physical universe processes or phenomena, but either way the description is incomplete without a unifying trinitarian aspect to it, for instance:

[(+ charge X – charge) X electricity] and described as:

An integrated Duality within an integrated Trinity-Unity

Why? Mostly because they are still in orthodox sway to monetary and economic myths like Say’s Law, the quantity theory of money and the velocity of its circulation. Also they see it as a challenge to their power in their (inevitably losing) power struggle with Capital, and also as a challenge to their (diminishing) union constituency. In Douglas’s day the socialists were more adamantly opposed to Social Credit than were the Bankers. One of the major Fabian Socialist leaders of that day, I believe his name was Sydney Webb, was attributed as saying, “I don’t care if Douglas is right or not, I simply don’t like his policies.” If there is one thing more adamantly and stubbornly right than a zealous libertarian capitalist, it is a stubbornly right and zealous Marxist. Both are blinded by current orthodoxy…and by their own agendas of power. And neither looks at the fact that individual labor costs (even including management and business owners and stockholder’s incomes) are only a subset of total costs for every enterprise. Do the calculus on that flow and you have A + B.

QE is Social Credit for the Banks.

MMT is Social Credit for the government.

Corbyn’s “QE for the people” is really just QE for government with some infrastructure thrown in which I wouldn’t oppose at all because increasingly western nations are falling apart infrastructure wise, but such indirect policies that go into commerce first just increase and re-initiate A + B ….and thus never have full and direct policy reach to the individual. Only a costless free gift that goes directly to the individual via a dividend and a discount to retail prices can avoid/overcome  A + B.

We need Social Credit for the individual, structural Public Banking to compete with Private Banking and Public Banking elevated to a central Banking entity which truly acts in the interests of the individual, the free flowingness of the system and that would calculate the dividend and discount percentage.

Lost and Rudderless fleet of US, Russia and China got drunk and forgot they were running out of fuel/Mammon, Leviathon and Folly/Control bit off the rudders of each ship

Rudder repair is two policies of dividend and discount

Banks/Finance are the wealthy controllers of the Captain/Politicians

Business leaders are also on board

Solution is converting water of the ocean (abundance of Grace/Consciousness) into electrical energy to power and direct rudder

Stowaway window cleaner saves ship and fleet with policies of Social Credit and a mass movement against Finance which sets up structural Public Banking and NCO delivering the dividend and discount.

Show that idea of Grace and mass movement are absolutely necessary and policies that perfectly align with them…if freedom and rational control/Direction is to be the reality. Also have Banking/Finance be reduced to fee for service business and public banking being used for infrastructure and funding of government at 0%

Incorporate Duality Within Trinity-Unity into solution  i.e. you have to have a being with a limitless idea and dual policies in the physical universe aligned with it…to have a complete and wise solution.

[ Being with Idea  X  (Dividend X Discount) ]

Why? Because the discount to the consumer has already reduced the price well below the retailers actual costs, and because the rebate back to the merchants is only for actual sales already having occurred so there is no “too much money chasing too little product”.

As for the dividend causing inflation, no again. Why? Because in every moment of the economy there is an unequal ratio between total individual incomes and total costs/prices…and so the dividend is actually simply intertemporally equating that ratio and hence enabling an equilibrium where an inherent disequilibrium continually exists.

The net effect of the dividend and discount together is economic equilibrium and freedom for the individual (dividend) and price deflation and the elimination of most if not all of the necessity for the consumer to borrow in order to have a middle class lifestyle (discount).

The anatomy and component parts of immanent individual economic freedom and progression toward money becoming a ticket for the distribution of production are the + and – aspects of the dividend and discount policies. They are also the sanest, most ethical and most economically efficient use of the digital nature of the money system.

Rational and ethical  regulations will of course be necessary to guide the system and guard against actions which could destabilize it, but these could also be couched in terms of gracious options for businesses and individuals to take in terms of tax relief for re-investment of savings and profits in the interest of a more efficient and/or more ecologically sound economy and higher taxation for re-investments in merely financialized products which are actually economic vices.

An economy based on policies reflecting all of the aspects of Grace would be one where ethics would be a constant and yet freeing quest, and would also be one that was wisely aware of fraudulent or unbalanced actions that would tend to throw the system back into mere exploitable economic conditions, and so would be willing and able to authoritatively act to preserve the primary ethic of Grace and freedom for the individual.

Make grace as in the free monetary gift the new consumer financial paradigm and you will evolve and transform the entirety of the rest of the economy. Implement a policy of a sufficiently abundant lifestyle guaranteed without employment and also a policy that guarantees actual price deflation and the dominating rule of Finance will end. Then we can all progress toward a leisure society where technology and AI provide increasing abundance with less resource usage and a free and un-coercible mindset in everyone that would make self determined restraint on consumption much more likely than an employment guarantee that is actually nothing but an increasingly austere race to the bottom.

Better we awaken now, instead of becoming slowly and imperceptively “boiled frogs” or pawns in the next war in an age of modern weaponry.

Answer:  No one. And because all costs have been summed for every item at retail we could utilize the the power of our digital monetary system to discount prices 50% + and rebate those discounts back to the the retail merchants and consequently increase everyone’s purchasing power by half.  Combine that with a $1500/mo universal dividend and economic freedom and stability would break out all over the place.

An Exteriorized/Encompassing Viewpoint is a Great Tool For Consciousness raising. In the same way that seeing the earth from orbit helps one see the idiocies of rampant Nationalism, so an extriorized and concentrically expanded and more inclusive viewpoint containing and encompassing all priorly known TRUTHFUL data and insights and better actualizes their totality. It also helps one see the futility and incorrectness of holding onto their UNTRUTHS and/or holding onto exclusionary or absolutist notions about those insights. This is true and actual integration. This is Wisdom. This is the concept and with contemplation the experience of Grace as the pinnacle concept of Wisdom.