Walt,

I completely understand your attempt to make a good general and positive statement, and I’m sure the majority could sign on to it. By all means proceed.

I would only suggest taking that message directly to the individual at least as vigorously as lobbying politicians and tailoring THAT message to their obvious self interests (and the interests of the small to medium sized businessman as well) as blatantly and mathematically understandable as possible. That’s how MLK, Jr and Ghandi did it. Grassroots and obvious self interests.

Sample script: “With a non-profit publicly administered central bank and national banking system we could reduce the cost of a $300k house by say 50% at note signing and make it at 0% interest on a 10 year note thats a $625/mo. payment. 10 years and you’re an actual owner of your home instead of a renter of the Banks for 30 years. That way the system will serve us instead of us having to serve the system.”

(actually it could be lowered to $75k because with a 50% reduction at retail sale it could already be reduced to $150k, but that’s my job to communicate…unless of course Public Banking and Wisdomics-Gracenomics were to integrate with each other).

Yes, Public Banking and the policies of social credit/Wisdomics-Gracenomics could be a very powerful synthesis. A public banking system preferablt a national one with the monetary authority fully in line with it is necessary….but if I may make one more point. Reforms can be undone or even reversed. A paradigm change, not so. Humanity never went back to hunting and gathering after we cognited on the abundance of agriculture. We never went back to Ptolemaic cosmolgy after helio-centrism became apparent. And scarcity enforced by the self interests of private finance and its paradigm of Debt/Burden/Additional Costs Only will never rise again if we awaken to the new paradigm of Abundantly Direct and Reciprocal Monetary Gifting. This is what the big debate on the social credit list is presently about.

The 50% discount/rebate policy of my Wisdomics-Gracenomics is the very expression of the new paradigm, and the realization that a high percentage discount/rebate at the point of retail sale is the discovery of the telescope of economic theory. Why? Because if you implement a high percent reduction in price at that particular (systemic ending, costs and price summing and terminal expression point for inflation) point….you can pour virtually as much money into the economy as you so please….and never have to worry about inflation because normal garden variety inflation is virtually always a smal single digit number due to the costliness of fixed capital intensive modern economies and competition, and hyper-inflations never occur without prior disastrous circumstances and a compliant central bank that leverages up speculators who short the currency and initiate the actual hyper aspect of it.

Douglas and latter day social crediters are very smart, but they have not recognized the paradigm changing power of the retail discount policy they’ve advocated now for almost 90 years.

Starting a mass movement advocating Public Banking and showing the individual and the businessman how the numbers of what a 50% discount/rebate policy will do for both the individual’s purchasing power (doubling it) and enterprise (doubling the potential money available for their products and services), concisely showing how the tipping point of retail sale is so systemically powerful and showing how that policy is the very expression OF the new paradigm will win the hearts of individuals AND businessmen and be a winning political strategy at the same time.

JR:  Modern Social Crediters, at least here in NZ, have NEVER advocated a discount policy  for two reasons:

Me:  All of your objections are simply social credit orthodoxies (and a couple of kiwi ones tossed in) that never fully cognited on the systemic and paradigm changing effects of the discount policy.  The abundant discount/rebate policy IS a SYSTEMIC effect because its at the ending point of production where it becomes CONSUMPTION and the terminal expression point for any and all inflation. Has anyone here ever paid $100 for groceries and when you got home the grocer called you and said, “Sorry, we have to have another $25 for those groceries.” Never. That’s because the point of retail sale is the SYSTEMIC ending point for every consumer item, the summing point of all costs and prices for same and the terminal expression point for inflation. It’s also the potentially paradigm changing policy point….if you make the discount sufficiently large.

JR: Steve, you might win this discussion, but not by retreating further into vagaries.

Me: Okay John

“NOBODy has ever shown clearly how it could be funded”

That’s simple John. The same way that money as debt funds it now, ex nihilo. Only difference is its a gift of money that the individual doesn’t have to pay back.

“and NOBODY has ever shown how a “Just Price” could be calculated and enforced over the thousands of items available on the market in different circumstances involving different costs to retailers.”

The concept of a “just price” is flawed and completely unnecessary and irrelevant mostly because it assumes there is a necessity to have a macro-economic monetary equilibrium….which there doesn’t have to be. Social crediters lived in classical economics which assumed general equilibrium. That has been de-bunked thoroughly. As for prices on the market in different circumstances involving different costs to retailers that is equally irrelevant. There are different prices for the same product by different producers now and that won’t change. If Libby’s lima beans are $1.50 and Wal Mart’s lima beans are $1.20 with the 50% discount they’ll sell for $.75 and $.60 respectively.

“In addition, a rate set as high as 50% would make it impossible to apply the fundamental SoCred principle of an independent Credit Authority determining how much new money a government could put into circulation , to balance the exact needs of the economy at the time. To avoid either demand inflation of deflation.”

There’s the general equilibrium flawed orthodoxy creeping into your thinking again. The high percentage discount/rebate policy at retail sale PREVENTS ANY CHANCE OF INFLATION. Why? Because as I have said repeatedly normal garden variety inflation is a low single digit percentage and hyper inflations do not occur except in specific disastrous circumstances. Furthermore, if a retailer raises his prices more than he normally does and his competitor does not or even lowers them due to the cost savings for them enabled by implementing the high percentage discount/rebate…just how long is it going to take the consumer to see this and buy from his competitor instead. And if they do the program I advocate will tax the difference between whatever revenues that they garnered by arbitrarily inflating their prices and what they would have earned by not doing so….by 110%.

“To anyone giving it some thought, it must be apparent that it would benefit the very rich rather than the ordinary citizen. 50% of the costs of luxury yachts and personal jet liners would somewhat overshadow the return on a loaf of bread.”

That’s the economics of envy which is emotionally negative and probably a good way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I will say however that my idea of a 50% tax on any income above $50,000,000/yr. for charitable, philanthropic and/or to fund research and innovation for ecological sustainability ought to help those crazed by monetary accumulation to find greater positive and constructive purpose.

“Behind all this, there is the need to get debt out of the system so that large proportions of local taxes (“rate”s in our terms) are no longer channeled into interest charges.”

Which is precisely what the high percentage discount/rebate does. Especially with my innovation of extending the 50% discount to the point of note signing for homes and other big ticket items. That way a $300k home would be reduced to $150 k at retail sale and to $75k at note signing with the non-profit national banking system….and at 0% interest to boot. That would be a $625/mo. payment on a 10 year note instead of a much more expensive $300k note @ 5% for 30 years. Wisdomics-Gracenomics will create the first true ownership economy and instead of the state “withering away” as Marx envisioned the real problem behind government, i.e. finance and its paradigm of Debt Only will be doing so.

JR:  That’s the way post-WW1 hyperinflation was engendered to counter reparations in Germany.  I understand they were surprised that for a start, production just rose to meet increased demand, but when they cranked it up to so0mething approaching the level you intend, it started.

Me:   “I understand they were surprised that for a start, production just rose to meet increased demand, but when they cranked it up to so0mething approaching the level you intend,
> it started.”

That was not the reason for the hyper-inflation. It was merely a little higher than normal inflation until the German central bank leveraged up a bunch of speculators who shorted the currency and that is when the hyperinflation occurred.

“Do I infer that you would also use new money for infrastructure etc?  And a dividend.”

Of course why not? With the high percentage discount/rebate policy in effect there cannot be inflation and the country’s infrastructure is literally falling apart.

“You assume that competition would still work when every retailer (or purchaser) would get the discount regardless of the price set?!!!!”

Of course it would. And because my policies would eliminate the costs of transfer taxes competition for market share would probably intensify. I’m sorry, you keep bringing this unfounded fear up, but it’s just a kiwi mistaken understanding of the mechanism and power of the discount/rebate policy…especially a high percentage one that I advocate.

“The pertinent point with Social Credit is that it would design its moves carefully and responsibly to attain a steady-state economy.  This is something that orthodox economists consider impossible,, but S C understands the cause of instability.  They don’t.”

A steady state economy is a classical economic orthodoxy and is not the solution. The solution is the free flowing “higher disequilibrium” of an abundance ratio of total individual incomes to total costs/prices….enabled by the high percentage discount/rebate policy.

LA:  Actually Steve, I agree and disagree with you on this point.  I think your proposals can work but I also believe the equilibrium of the Just-Price mechanism will work too. Now why do I think your proposals will work?  That’s simple.  The public’s desire to consume is most definitely finite.  There is only so much square footage in my house to fill.  I don’t need 17 refrigerators and eventually when I have the one I like, I will just keep it until it wears out.  In our economy, people don’t buy junk anymore because there is no shortage of purchasing power.  Everyone gets what they really want and we all want things that don’t break.  It is inconvenient to have to go out and buy “it” again.  So the point is that it doesn’t matter what the price is – as long as we have the means to get what we want or need.

Me:  Thanks Liam,

Again I appreciate everyone’s thinking here. My only point both here and on the social credit list is….why settle for a better but mere theory when you can have a genuine paradigm/sea change? Either way the naysayers and conscious and unconsciously bought are going to hurl invective and invalidation at us….but if you take the strikingly beneficial message of a paradigm change DIRECTLY to the individual and to large normally opposing constituencies like the small to medium sized business community….you will command their attention and be able to utilize that more ethical and beneficial message to herd the enitre political apparatus toward its implementation.