Conversations with MM

MM:  Craig, I suppose there’s a valid use-case for calling it merely the “Debt Only” paradigm but, tho this is a heady academic arena, I think calling it the piracy paradigm or klrptocracy paradigm or, for econometric techies, the plutonomy paradigm. It also seems worth pointing out the financialization of culture, the inherently collateral corruption of civilization and the corrupt dyseducation of human minds. Not sure what you mean by re-retailization of the same old con-game. Yet, the only possible solution I see is a new alternative that supports & sustains nontoxic, non-ecocidal culture, globally. Now, I need to get back to establishing the GCDA & GCCS as actual realities. Cheers ~

Me:  I call it the paradigm of Debt or Debt/Burden/Additional Cost Only because that specific paradigm (there are many unconsciously bouncing around inside every individual’s head) is most problematically relevant to economics. The other labels you put on them are accurate as well, but I like focusing in the primary/operant causes. I believe its one of the aspects of what I refer to as paradigm perception and as paradigms are integrative wholistic “things” themselves (they are a single concept that describe and define entire patterns) they reflect the process of wisdom itself.
From your other post to me that’s why I call my work Wisdomics-Gracenomics because its the thing that economic theorizing is most missing, that is wisdom and its pinnacle natural philosophical concept of grace whose various aspects have actually always been behind every historical paradigm change. I’ve mentioned here many times that wisdom includes the scientific method within it. Perhaps I could call it Scientific Wisdomics-Gracenomics and now that I think of it that might be better as it is a trinity-unity-oneness mental analytic process which squares with the subject of one of my other books The Cosmic Code which emphasizes the unitary trinitarian process itself which spoken is: an integrated duality within an integrative trinity-unity-oneness-process. You could fit it into the cosmic code either as

[(Science x Wisdom) —> Gracenomics ] or

[ (Economics x Wisdom) —> Wisdomics-Gracenomics ]

At any rate trinity-unity-oneness-process is seen throughout logic, mathematics, nature, consciousness studies/spirituality, etc. etc.

[ (1 + 2) —> 3 ], [ (2 + 3) —> 5 ], —> the Fibonacci sequence

Hegel’s dialectic

[ (the symmetrical sides of a leaf) —> the stem from which they both arose ]

[ (the abreactive/irrational dualistic character of a zen koan)
—> satori ]

[ (capitalism x socialism) —> The profit making system of Direct and Reciprocal Monetary Distributism ]

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To me finance isn’t a legitimate business model at all. Money being the life’s blood of individual and commercial survival and yet it dominates everyone and every other business model….instead of serving them. Money is a great tool that I see no real reason to alter or abandon, but enabling/justifying its power to dominate is a form of negative ethics. To me it’s not real to think that finance can be/remain a profit making business model. In order to rationally and ethically control the power and necessity of finance it must become a non-profit public utility that is guided by the unimpeachable concept and ethic of grace.

By “the re-retailization” of the economy I mean doing the above with finance, realizing that the purpose of production is consumption and that retail sale is the point where the former becomes the latter and that without the 5000 year old dominating and de-stabilizing intrusion of both its private and publicly administered varieties (unless of course the latter is, again, guided by the concept of grace) we could have a stable, fair, ethical and much more abundant economy for all….by focusing on the bringing of production to the point of consumption/retail sale.

MM:  Also, Craig, I think your list of Maslow’s factors are upside down. Also, zeitgeist/ethic of the era seems intrinsically inseparable from the dominant paradigm (the commonly accepted model of consensual reality).

Me:  Yes, research/Data Gathering is the bottom, Ethic/Zeitgeist is the top. An ethic of the age is the purest expression of a paradigm and the acculturation of it. Grace is the next zeitgeist for not only economics, but everything from physics to spirituality. Grace being the ultimate integrative trinity-unity-oneness-process of everything….how can it not be so. The recognition of grace as the answer in and of each and everything/the cosmos is actually the holographic insight (every part is and has all of the essential aspects/parts of the whole…and vice versa)

RL:  Beware of collective nouns.

Me:  Of course. But we should also seek them. Even though parochial religion is almost certainly delusive, if we do not seek the EXPERIENCES of god in order to self actualize them we live a hapless, one eyed, pitiful and potentially dangerous existence.

RL:  So you are the world historical figure through whom the experiences of god are being self actualized. Its a messy business. Hegel thought Napoleon was a world historical figure fulfilling this role and N said what are the lives of a million men to a man like myself. Start by valuing the lives of every individual, or you end up a mass murderer.

Me:  Of course I never made any such claim. I DO claim that is everyone’s adult responsibility though. The clarity of present time is a lot less messy than science or any other orthodoxy.

*************************

Me:  Michael,
MM:  “Craig, I do see what you mean, but the dialog with RL proves my point.
For example, you both resorted to theology & philosophy without achieving any generally acceptable upgrade of economics or its fractured paradigm, meta-economics.

ME:  Actually I didn’t resort to theology, but rather natural philosophy/spirituality which is Buddhist to the core. And if looked at and understood I’ve (over and over) described the concept and temporal universe effects of the new paradigm. It’s just that it’s still going splat! whenever it hits orthodoxy and mind filters created by same. But I soldier on. 🙂

MM:  “Theological arguments & doctrines & dogma & terms seem woefully inappropriate to the task. Any valid science is based on discovering what is, beyond mere belief & opinion.
Spirituality, religion and religious beliefs, maxims, etc., are clearly potent noetic elements and motivators of human cultural activity. Hence, they can and should be considered for realistic analysis. Yet, they cannot be determining elements of scientific theory and practice.”

Me:  I agree. However, grace (or any other word other wisdom traditions hang on it like satori-kensho, samadhi, atonement, “the friend”, moksha, etc. is referring to the same experience. Also, grace as in the dynamic, interactive, integrative flow of the cosmos (shiva’s dance etc. plug in the wisdom tradition concept) IS the most cutting edge quantum physics description of ACTUAL temporal universe reality so there’s no mere duality necessary to argue about and one can see (if they drop their own mind filters) that the ultimate reality is the integrative trinity-unity-oneness-process of the cosmic code that recognizes that all perspectives/realities and their opposites have truth in them including the existential reality of human consciousness that perceives and can unify them. After all as the zen saying goes: Wherever you go there YOU are.

Wisdom includes Science, and there is no necessary conflict between the two.

Finally, grace as in love in action is identical to the Buddhist “compassionate wisdom” so far as I can logically discern.

I sense you’ll be agreeing with me in this post.

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