Me:  Extremely important understanding. It means that what economics actually needs is a new philosophy. In fact it also signals that what is required is a new paradigm to be integrated into the present monetary and economic systems. The signature of paradigm changes has always been a swapping/inversion of position of dominance/primacy and also a thorough integration of opposites which re-integrates all of the components of the entire system. As the Copernican helio-centric paradigm change was a swapping/inversion of the position of the earth and the sun and the understanding that the sun was to be considered the primary astrological center it was a thorough integration of opposites and a re-integration of the entire system. As Finance is the current dominant/primary business model and its enforced paradigms for the individual are Only Via Debt/ Loan and For Enterprise, For Production Only, so direct monetary Gifting For Consumption is its opposite. Intelligently integrated and implemented into the digital money system this would end the curious and almost entirely overlooked dominance of Finance in what is supposedly a system that advocates free competitive markets, re-integrating and stabilizing both the micro and macro economy.

JD:  The question for a science, which economics should be, is whether a mathematical construction bears a useful resemblance to the observable world. This can only be decided by *observation*.

Going on about Godel’s theorem only continues the confusion that mathematics is science. It is not. It is a tool used in science.

Me:  Economics should strive toward scientific status, however, human beings and enterprises and their leadership not being altogether rational and ethical actors will always make any theory less than scientific. It’s just the nature of the system, the agents in it and hence the body of knowledge itself. Economic theory should strive most importantly and urgently for Wisdom. Science is a form of Wisdom actually, but an incomplete form. We need “the full armor” of Wisdom which includes science, philosophy and ethics, and we need an open mind to new ideas regarding all three.

GD:  Craig, I don’t disagree with your description of what economics needs to consider, but your picture of “science” seems to be that it deals only with inexorable clockwork mechanisms. Modern science includes complex self-organising systems that can embrace living systems without killing them. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not excluded.

So when I say economics should be a science, I’m really only saying that it should look for the regularities discernible in observations and describe them. Even human affairs have some patterns, imperfect though they may be. Otherwise, why would historians bother?

Me:  Not really. There is actually three types of science. Orthodox science, “good” open minded science and scientific breakthroughs which are generally characterized by a re- integration of a scientific viewpoint that is aided and abetted by an aspect or aspects of consciousness. The most recent of which was Einstein’s imagination/visualization of a man leaping out of a window and sliding down space-time. Physics has been struggling for almost 100 years to reconcile quantum realities with empirical particles when they would probably be smarter to realize that the quantum universe where particles continually come into being and then go back out of existence is perfectly reflective of the actions of human consciousness reaching out and experiencing the temporal universe and then withdrawing from it and in so doing that part of the temporal universe…for them and in that moment….goes out of existence for them. This does not invalidate the reality of the physical/temporal universe, but it does mean that our consciousness and its actions are reflective of quantum reality and are very likely a factor that rigid and arrogant orthodox scientific empiricism/positivism unconsciously uses to impede scientific breakthrough. Economics would undoubtedly scientifically benefit from the inclusion of consciousness and its many reflectivities in considering new policies.

Me:  If economic theories cannot be proven correct, which is true, then the correct and wise thing to do is to focus on the best, most beneficial for all economic philosophy and its aligned policies. In other words look/think/integrate and do not fail to act….to correct the economy’s historically problematic facts/areas. Market worship and any other present orthodoxy then is exposed as irresponsibility and/or conscious or unconscious defense of the status quo. Here’s a short list of such problematic facts/areas:

1) Chronic/continual scarcity of individual income
2) Chronic inflation
3) The monopolistic dominance of Finance’s monetary paradigms of Debt, Loan and For Production Only (This has been problematic for at least the last 5000 years)

One last little hint: Integration/Wisdom has always been the process of resolving opposites in a way that combines their particles of truth, workabilities and highest ethical considerations and simultaneously deletes their untruths etc.