Study and contemplate Grace, not ungraciousness, and when you have to or correctly decide to confront and handle ungraciousness integrate the experience immediately or immediately after you have gathered any experience or knowledge that adds depth and ethical resolve to yourself and your Life.

The ultimate economic efficiency and guarantor of a free flowing economy is a sustained and substantially discounted flow (as in 30-40% or more) of (rebated back to merchants) retail price deflation,  and that is accompanied by a relatively abundant universal dividend payment to individuals (which approaches a middle class level of income).  This reverses the present entropic reality of a scarcity of total individual incomes in simultaneous ratio to total costs/prices, and stabilizes a modern profit making economic system by creating a ratio where the flow of individual incomes continually and increasingly exceeds costs/prices and therefore creates an abundance “Gap”, a “higher Disequilibrium”  that brings immanent individual monetary and economic freedom, increasing free flowingness and stability to the system and a vector toward the evolution of money as a ticket for the distribution of production.

John,

“In between, the various stages are paying out simultaneously for different stages of production and no gap is caused by this factor.”

This is DSGE thinking which has been invalidated. It IS true that during periods of high production like war individual incomes can approach total consumer prices, but as soon as hostilities cease stupendous debts and other costs “magically” appear and recession follows immediately. That’s because underneath the APPARENT equilibrium A + B was STILL the continual reality. Waste is a big cost factor in production and the more production the more waste.

And again, numerical equilibrium is just another orthodoxy to get past. For Social Credit to be the free flowing Social Credit social crediters think it is….the entropic vector of the entire economy must be reversed by a price deflationary discount percentage. I’m sorry, I love and respect Social Crediters, but this is MY insight.

I have always liked that chart Liam. And as you say it doesn’t even take into account profit necessary to remain in business, or taxes, savings, re-investment of profits/savings and waste that widen the gap as well.

I’d like to repeat my statement (and get some responses to it) of the problem again:

The Gap is not actually caused by the loan or interest, as Gorham Munson’s chart shows, it is primarily caused by excess costs in ratio to individual incomes as flows and by Time/Time lags. That prior scarcity reality is indeed currently enforced upon us by the Banks via the monopolistic paradigm of loan only which is why we require the dividend and deflationary discount mechanisms as new costless Gifting paradigms integrated into the digital debt based system in order to enable true and actual flow, and yes, in the name of efficiency, we should make the costs of Finance as little as competition and/or AI can make possible with a Banking system that is mandated to return any profit over and above payroll and other costs back to a general fund and/or into an account that is distributed back to individuals. The cause is excess costs and time that create the scarcity ratio reality, the structural power of private finance and their monopoly idea/paradigm enforces it.

Actually, apart from trying to communicate the problem as simply as possible in the quoted sentence above, I don’t care which one is emphasized over the other in communicating to others so much as I do the importance of understanding the superiority of the balancing effectiveness of the policies of the dividend and discount. Ideas like complementary currencies and radical decentralism (both could undoubtedly also be tolerated within a system with the dividend and discount) are “nice” ideas, but both the temporal universe and spirituality have hierarchies in them for good reasons like focus and effectiveness in an other intentioned world….otherwise it’s confusing chaos for freedom. Why do you think zen buddhist monks practice meditating on present time so much, and becoming competent/professional requires years of study? Contemplating and self actualizing an ethic of Grace/graciousness is the precise and extremely powerful idea/moral force that is the key to keeping one’s Self and temporal affairs on track. Grace after all is the experience with the focused and disciplined intention of taking power…so that it is returned to the individual.

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John: I presume you are using “payments to other organisations”.

B costs are not just payments to other organizations, they include depreciation costs, the additional costs created by re-investment, waste, utilities and on and on.

“Douglas lost this one in his debate with ?Hawtrey, when he conceded at the end that this factor would not operate if one business carried out every stage.”

First lets see the exact exchange, not just your opinion, and maybe we can tease the actual truth out of Douglas’s response. Accurately provide the dialogue please. Secondly, as I stated above the OTHER ADDITIONAL costs would still apply…which I highly suspect was what Douglas actually said/meant….and so A + B is still in effect. It’s fundamentally about ADDITIONAL COSTS AND TIME.

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Accurately provide the dialogue between Douglas and Hawtry please.

I answered your fragmented use of the phrase “payments to other organisations” and I answered your ossified orthodox thinking regarding a mere numerical equilibrium which invalidated all of the (confusing) numbers you posted.

You need to answer MY questions like explaining why you think competition would not be operative in a profit making system when there was adequate incomes in the hands of the consumer. I think competition will always remain in a profit making system….although IF we had a truly deflationary discount percentage I can see where other competitive factors than price would become more important.

“Loans and interest enforce the gap but don’t cause it?”

The generally held financial idea/paradigm of debt and loan ONLY enforces the primary economic reality of the flow of ALL costs exceeding the flow of individual incomes, and monetary grace/gifting is the new paradigm that is necessary to be actualized in order to resolve those combined problems. I’m trying to get people here to mentally look at both sides of that problem so as to integrate their thinking instead of only perceiving part of the truth because of orthodoxy or perhaps agenda. Structures and facts, neither of which I am denying and both of which are undeniably also relevant, still pale in importance to integrating both facts and the primary ideas/realities behind them which leads to more complete understanding and hence less reactionary action. Philosophy/Wisdom focuses and clarifies. That is extremely important in a complex and subtle subject like economics and money systems.

The “treading water” type equilibrium is only numeric. The price deflationary “Higher Disequilibrium” is powerful enough to reverse the vector of the entire economy from entropic to non-entropic, from halting to free flowing, from collapsing to rejuvenated, from enslaving to freeing, from unethical to ethical and so from descending to ascending/ascendant.

Consciousness is subtle and invisible unless one contemplates and actualizes it, and A + B is the same, and thus the two are perfectly reflective of each other.

Robert,

What about saying:

“The root cause of humanity’s unstable economic woes is a continual shortage of total individual incomes in ratio to total costs, and that is enforced/held in place by private control of money creation.”

That is the more integrated statement of both realities.

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How about:

“The problem is a shortage of individual income enforced by only a single, costly and indirect means of income distribution, namely a loan.”

That’s the essence if not the complete (and complex) reality.

Me:   John D,  It’s true that the sole proprietor type businessman has less expenses/costs to pay….but they are still there. Do you use a computer and accounting software or just even accounting supplies to record your business income? Do you pay taxes? There are many small costs and diminutions of income like this that still need to be paid, and hence your income is less than your income and your other costs. A + B is never not in effect in commerce/the economy.

[ ( Reality/Actuality #1 X Reality/Actuality #2)  Underlying Reality/Actuality that is/results in a Third-Unitary State ]

[ (Reaching out with consciousness, Withdrawing of consciousness)  Consciousness Itself ]

― Theodore Roosevelt

+ and – are the component parts of an economic equilibrium. However, [ (+ and -) +,- ] is also an equilibrium, a higher, a more economically conscious equilibrium.

For instance let’s say that the economy, because it is utterly embedded in the even larger temporal/physical universe reality, must obey the laws of thermo-dynamics and so expends energy in the process of producing something. And of course energy has a cost, so there is more cost energy-wise built into the very process of production itself than is readily observed. Another more observable way to see this is when a business borrows $1 million to start producing and $600k of that is involved in actually building the building and the machines that produce their product. Now this building and machines wear out and have to be replaced so the costs the businessman has to get from the prices he charges his customers is actually $1.6 million, so again more costs are created in the process of producing something…than total money distributed….to pay for that production. It creates a moment to moment monetary and economic ratio and reality that looks like the following:

Total Costs/Prices (1 +n)

Total (possible, but actual) individual incomes (n)

And so there is not only a ratio of a scarcity of total individual incomes to total costs, but these costs build up over time and so “gum up” the entire system. Now, enter the Banker “doing God’s work.” (Actually he is more into being the economic God than actually doing God’s work,…because God’s/Consciousness’s  work/intention after all is Grace, right?) The Banker is happy (generally) to loan the business more money, but of course he charges a cost for that so the total costs in the system are never actually totally paid, and all of this continuous borrowing builds up…and so things tend to go downhill, businesses and individuals suffer and the Banker doesn’t get paid all of the time either. (Dang it!)

Now if we were to GIVE the individual a + of income on a continual basis that would make total incomes continually produced come closer to total costs simultaneously being created. But wait, …the system itself still tends to create more costs than incomes, so in order to actually have a (+,-) flow/equilibrium you have to have a mechanism for a -/reduction to costs. So if we reduced prices at the very end of the economic process at retail sale with a discount to prices to the consumer, i.e. everybody, and that was rebated back to the businesses that gave the discount….we could have a (+,-) equilibrium. But wait, everything done so far is merely regarding the economic system which is embedded within an even larger temporal/physical universe which on a cosmic scale and because of the laws of thermo-dynamics abhors a stasis/equilibrium and so still tends toward the above disequilibrium ratio. In other words it doesn’t like/doesn’t actually allow an equilibrium to exist through time …..even if you equate all of the numbers! Which means, if you want to put the economic and monetary systems on auto pilot/an actual free flow the only way to do it is to create “the higher disequilibrium” of MORE total individual incomes in ratio to total costs. (And of course just to be completely integrative, real and wise you’ll want to keep your eye on those systems also because….shit happens!)

THAT would proactively “get ahead of the curve”….of even the laws of thermo-dynamics and perfectly reflect God/Grace/Consciousness/negative entropy. And that could be expressed like this:

[( + and – ) +,- ]

where ( +, – ) is an “equilibrium” within the laws of thermo-dynamics and [( +, – ) +,- ] is the negative entropy monetary, economic and consciousness….balancing answer to that “equilibrium”.