Me:  What if the experience known as satori-kensho, atonement, samadhi, grace is simply a more direct and heightened present time experience of nature as in the electro-magnetic waves that surround us in space….and that the ecstatic nature of the experience….is what it is….an ecstatic natural experience of the flow and oneness that IS the temporal universe? Then being ONLY an orthodox physicist and scientist….you’re restricting knowledge and experience.

Not good science.

JB:  Completely agree, Craig. You have read the lives of the great physicists–Newton, Einstein, etc–and they all had relaxing hobbies–avenues of insight. I learn most from people when I can sit down with them at an academic conference, perhaps going for a walk or dinner. The point here, I believe, is the formal statements in academic journals.

KZ:  James does mysterious refer to complex. Or are you speaking about something else? There’s way too much mystification in science, particularly physics. If it’s complexity you’re referring to can we just use that term? The priesthood of physics is not helpful in human societies. Neither is the priesthood of biology, chemistry, etc. And particularly not the priesthood of economics.

JB:  Again, you’ve go it, it seems to me, Ken. Priesthoods must maintain their special status, whether for themselves, their beliefs or both. To me “mysterious” means “difficult to comprehend” in both a perceptual & cognitive sense. The Bible is filled with such. “Complex” means “many components”, as in the components of the human body or an aircraft. Measurement & listing normally handles the latter initially. But “seeing” a flying human or “hearing” a divine voice? As I had a psychiatrist in the family, I was used to hearing remarks like, “Half my patients hear or see things which others don’t.” We used to use this in diagnosis of psychosis, but now seem to prefer the term “dementia”. It does put the patient in the position of having to prove their normality to the rest of us, if they have that interest.

Me:  Correct. Priesthoods are the institutionalization of orthodoxies. Orthodoxies are the end of looking, knowing and the ability to unknow ….orthodoxies. Attuning one’s thinking and experience to the dynamic flowing balance and ability to discern truth in opposite perspectives of the integrative natural philosophical concept of grace is the wise alternative to orthodoxies in religion, politics, science and most urgently in economics and money systems.

KZ:  Quite correct Craig. But orthodoxies don’t necessarily mean wide spread common beliefs. Many mystifying orthodoxies are minority beliefs elevated to control large portions of entire societies. Take, for example, the notion of for profit economic actions.

Obfuscation in human culture goes back to the earliest western history. At least to the ancient Greeks. Mystification concerns the part deception, disguise, and dishonesty play in human actions and societies. Mystifying is about lying and hiding. Often elites mystify to maintain control and keep political, economic, and religious power in their hands. Mystification is also a way to control access to knowledge and to stratify societies. History is also often mystified so humans are made to feel rootless and alienated from history. This is often accomplished via irrelevant mythology. Science is mystified when for example supernatural explanations are substituted for phenomena science cannot yet explain. In politics “divine right” mystifies government. And religion is often mystified via inane rituals. Similarly, the human psyche is mystified by philosophy. Considering current events in the US the notion that ideology mystifies is now quite common. Ideology mystifies all aspects of “reality.” Including what exists, what is good, and what is possible. One of the most powerful of these ideologies is used by corporations and economists to mystify economic life.

Me:  What if the “belief” is the consideration of looking at everything including one’s own consciousness and its possible biases, their opposites, everything in between (or as much of it as one has currently considered) and integrating it in as coherent a way as possible? And after doing that koan….consciously or unconsciously considering dropping all of the analysis and simply experiencing the moment which doesn’t change anything from an objective standpoint, just the depth of one’s perception of the present.

KZ: Craig, as I emphasized the content of one’s belief is central. Humans operate via beliefs. The Nazi believes whites are superior. The Christian believes Jesus is savior. The scientist believes observation reveals facts. Craig believes self-observation improves sell- perception. And it’s my belief more observations of improving one’s self-perception are needed to confirm its actuality.

Me: Belief in Duality Only…it’s a hard nut to crack.

KZ: I agree. But where would the world’s religions be without it?

Me: Yes, but with the increase in leisure time brought about by the new paradigm of Monetary Gifting and an intelligent acculturation of personal purpose we could become the first contemplative civilization since Hunting and Gathering out of which the existential experiences religions arose.

KZ:  Craig, even if that is possible I’m not certain it would help more than hurt Sapiens.

Me:  I don’t share your pessimism. Surely there will be an adjustment period, and you’ll always have the anecdotal and unfortunate instances where individuals will abuse their newly won freedoms, but overall I think the effects will be mostly positive especially if we are smart enough to have the coordinated effort I’ve suggested. Now under a stressful, onerous, dominating and manipulative system the large majority find constructive purpose. With intelligent help I would expect that percentage to increase. Homo sapiens undoubtedly had more time to contemplate life when we were hunters and gatherers and we didn’t self destruct or otherwise collapse into ennui.

JB:  Craig, my anecdotal observations are typical of what I personally have noted as a non-random sample of hundreds of personal observations over many decades. Glad to have contrary observations. That aside, Craig, I think our challenge as a discipline is that we are overwhelmed by strong political personalities heading governments & many corporations, as well as social movements to include feminism & a violent Islam, changing climate & technology which brings forth its fruit constantly. I read the international scientific, political & economic press daily–it’s nearly a full-time job. I’m in constant mental readjustment.

Me:  Excellent, that places you in an elite corps of humanity. When the world is awash in various orthodoxies and one thing seems to be the other with no actual truth, instead of choosing polarization it’s time to integrate the particles of truth in opposites. The thirdness greater oneness alternative is always wisdom, and grace the utterly integrative ethic its pinnacle natural concept that needs to be our guide. That’s why Direct and Reciprocal Monetary Distributism insightfully and rationally implemented is the third integrative alternative to capitalism and socialism.

….what if businesses DO raise their prices by 3-4% or even more despite the beneficial regulations and incentives to keep prices the same or to further lower them, despite the taxation punishments I have eloborated on before and despite the expulsion from the discount/rebate policy if they do not stop attempting to de-stabilize the system?

And the answer is the discount at retail sale simply would need to be tweaked upwardly in order to accomplish the doubling of purchasing power for the individual….and the equally beneficial doubling of the potential amount of purchasing power available for every enterpise’s products and services. And again, the bully pulpit, sin taxation and expulsion will take care of those who cannot abide by rules….even if the rules and program are incredibly beneficial for them.

How about trying to craft linearity…out of complexity. That is actually the goal of dynamic policy, no?

Grace is love in action here in the temporal universe. If you have and create love in your heart and you express that love…you have fulfilled the law. You can have whatever other belief about grace, but here and now the above definition and reality perfectly apply…and if you do not align yourself with love expressed here….you are either mistaken, obsessive about letter of the law dogmas as opposed to its spirit or in some other way swayed by other, lesser considerations.

Love and grace its expression resolves all things.

I’m sure he’s well intentioned, but his advocacy of the sketchy concept of “Fourth Turnings” while being perhaps historically accurate misses the fact that fourth turnings only occur because of the human civilizational inability to achieve an integrative thirdness and greater oneness solution of their deepest problems. And that of course is what we should be focusing on instead of merely bashing ideas and institutions until chaos and collapse results.

Considering that the primary factor behind civilizational collapse for at least the last 5000 years has been the monopolistic paradigm for the vehicle and form of credit/money creation being Debt Only; rationally and intelligently integrating the primacy of the new paradigm of Direct and Reciprocal Monetary Gifting would undoubtedly be the key step in achieving such thirdness greater oneness and so of avoiding the insane repetition of fourth turnings.

He has basically re-discovered Douglas’s cost accounting/cost inflationary insight on the lower bound of costs/prices…on its upper bound via debt deflation after asset price inflation has outstripped the capability of individuals and enterprise to service debt.

Both perspectives are true, but Douglas’s insight is missed, and if it is not recognized stability will elude us. Also, Douglas’s dual policies of a universal dividend and a discount/rebate, and my paradigm changing extensions and innovations of same, are the more basic and integrated means of remedying both problems by utilizing the tool of double entry bookkeeping which is the underlying infrastructure of all commerce as well as its most detailed and comprehensive recording mechanism.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely is a wise and observant saying.  In view of this, if private banking has a virtual monopoly on both credit creation and also over the paradigm of the form and vehicle for the distribution of money, namely Debt Only, how incredibly unwise is that?

In a Wisdomics-Gracenomics economy both of these monopoly powers will end, and a publicly administered national banking system will replace it and be aligned with and guided by the natural philosophical concept of grace as in benevolence etc. ….not by the comparatively tawdry ethics of power and profit alone.

Grace is dynamic interactive and integrative balance. It is also the pinnacle concept and experience of wisdom. Within an abundance economy that enabled financibility for any well thought out business plan or rational endeavor that would mean that every effort at ecological sustainability and sanity could and would be made because what is more rational and sane than the choice of ecological survival? Such would simply be the continuation of the very process of wisdom which is the integration of the truths, workabilities, relevant applicabilities and highest ethical considerations in opposites.

Wise regulation is wise, and regulation based on the pinnacle concept and experience of wisdom, namely grace, one of whose aspects is balanced inversion as solution, could even be a temporary and/or selective reversal of abundance.

If ethics aren’t primary in every human interaction and in human systems, then the inevitable result will be pain, harm and disharmony. Now this doesn’t mean you have to be obsessive or doctrinaire about morals and ethics, after all ethics is the rational consideration of morals not some humorless, exacting and judgemental unhealthiness.

Primacy means first and last and always most considered. If you don’t base your thoughts and actions on the loftiness of a well considered ethic the center never holds and it is not only possible that you will abandon your ethics it is almost inevitable. And if we do base your lives and our systems on an unimpeachable ethic like the natural philosophical concept of grace as in the primacy of ethics our lives and systems will be so much more robust, securely embraced by the populace and stabily productive of the Good.

Subsidizing a particular industry or corporate entity is biased, harmful and old paradigm. Subsidizing every individual and commercial agent in a beneficial way so that it rejuvenates and makes profit making economic systems more profitable, more humane and free flowing….is paradigm changing.

The one is reactionary and biased, the other rational, ethical, generally beneficial and so unbiased.