IMO we need to integrate the idea of a BIG/Dividend AND work/service to the society. That resonates with the orthodox and the free thinkers. I recently floated the idea of having the authorities declare that the new definition of full time work was 15-20 hrs/week. Hence you could employ a lot more people and make the necessity of a BIG/Dividend a lot more clear as businesses could not expect to double their payroll and survive, but could double their employees and pay the same total payroll with the above integration. Again, that would make the inadequacy of total individual incomes more real to everyone which the rational person would say, “Okay, lets GIVE everyone an income that along with the new modern technologically advanced definition of full time employment enables them to have a guaranteed middle class level of income and lifestyle.

And service, so long as it was part time, to the nation whether it be caring for the family, elders, mentally ill, drug addicted or cleaning up the environment wouldn’t hurt a generation otherwise distracted from distraction by distraction.

Integrate. Once you have a BIG/Dividend and Discount in place… regressive forces will never be able to get rid of it. And the trend toward less enforced work and more leisure as in self determined attention to positive activity one enjoys…will take root.

John:  Probably partly because so many Social Crediters take an unlikely figure for the “gap”, a totally improbable 50% in this case.
In a fully functioning modern society (when it exists) the “gap” is filled by new debt. If debt incrteased by 50%. even half that, every year, the system would have collapsed copmpletely long ago.
I on’t claim it musty be as sm all as this, but a gap of 3 to 5% could cause the problems Douglas predicted and which showed his analysis is correct.
Neither Douglas nor anyone else has quantified the “gap|” or even devised accurate means of measuring it. For that reason. implementation of Social Credit remedies wopuld have to be done in small steps involving trial and error and cautions procedurte.
Until we have a Credit Authiority with reliable statistics to work on, we siumply don’t know what we can do.

J R

Me:  Yeah, so we can go another hundred years still relying on itty-bitty increases in income and itty-bitty decreases in amounts of borrowing…so the Banks can rule everything….forever. So we can “free” everyone into second class/welfare level incomes and the regressive forces say, “See, I told you it was just socialist enslavement all along.”

NO!!! The Dividend and Discount policies are the very definition and component parts of an economic equilibrium. They are the perfect reflections of the digital + and – nature of the money system, and zero in on the most basic metric that describes the deepest problem, the scarcity of individual incomes and the excess/additional costs that the system ITSELF CONTINUOUSLY creates.

No more infinitely small reform steps that can be easily reversed and that end up being one step forward three steps back!

Complete Transformation FIRST!!! Regulation if we need it …right along with it!

We need to think beyond “the Gap” as an orthodoxy, beyond a mere balancing/equilibrium and toward a higher disequilibrium of the gap ratio where individual incomes are HIGHER than costs/prices and yet the economy is also more stable.

Where we are CONSCIOUSLY utilizing philosophy and policy to change the vector of the economy toward individual freedom and systemic free flowingness, and toward money as a ticket for the distribution of production in a post scarcity high tech economy. Conscious Economics…that’s exactly what we need.

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Stuart:  Do you think being an authoritarian and a racist are mutually exclusive? To hell with any media spin, watch him on video and draw your own damned conclusions. You have to be pretty deaf to his statements on race, and the context in which they are made, to be oblivious to his racism. His scapegoating of Blacks, Mexicans, and Muslims is remarkably reminiscent of Hitler, and the way his racial dog whistles inspire his lumpen disciples to violence is sickening.

Me:  They can be mutually exclusive. I think Trump is politically very smart and I think he will shamelessly utilize demagoguery to get to his goal. After that I would bet you 10 to 1 he’s a moderate whose mind is at least open on certain matters. And again, I never said I liked him, I just don’t feel the need to swallow liberal or conservative media and political orthodoxy. You can drink the liberal kool-aid propaganda as much as you want, and right up until Trump is elected….I drink neither the liberal nor the libertarian/conservative kool-aid, I’m outside of the box and can see the idiocies and particles of truth in both perspectives. I’m even outside of the Social Credit box. I’m for looking and seeing and integrating. Not re-gugitating orthodoxy in any way.

Stuart:   Well, I suppose it helps to get outside the box to see how wacko wisdom can be, eh? But no, to be honest, I don’t know what you mean when you say “..which a lot like the modern attitude toward actual Wisdom now.”

Me:  Wisdom is the integrative process itself and also the means of garnering it. An integration is not a compromise that tries to conglomerate things that don’t work, are inapplicable and are not true. Modern economic and monetary theory, political perspective, and lots of other issues are so riven with orthodox thinking that even compromise is anathema let alone integrating the truth(s), intentions, workabilities and applicabilities of these things. Hence orthodoxy is rife, passes as truth and so no actual progress occurs. It’s just a lot of heat and no light. Wisdom is actually looking at things, not relating to them via an orthodoxy. Modernity either reactively rejects wisdom outright because they think it smacks of religion, or is so into orthodox opinion parading itself as truth that they wouldn’t recognize it if it came up and bit them in the ass. You have to de-construct everything…and then be willing to re-assess some of what you’ve de-constructed and re-integrated…if it actually does integrate. I came out of a liberal progressive perspective. There’s a lot of orthodoxy there…just like there is from the libertarian/conservative perspective.

John:  Douglas stated that, under the present system it was “necessary to produce a machine gun to sell a loaf of bread”.
Obviously, he was speaking”tongue om cheek” because whatever the extent of the”gap” the relative costs are a bit exaggerated.
However, the fact remains that, if we accept his analysis, it is necessary to bring new funds into circulation by borrowing to ensure that all of procuction will be sold.  The alternative is for some industry to go bankrupt.
Production of anything that is not a consumer good will do the job.  It might be new capital equipment or public infrastructure.
That is why, at present, all is well when industry is expanding and why a pause will cause a serious downturn.
It also means that, in “good times” whern expanmsion is occurring. or when governments are running deficits or both, the general increase in overall debt, less any inflationary factor of course,  should provide a reliable estimate of any gap.
Surely this is obvious?

Me:  You make a numerical orthodoxy out of “the Gap”, and a pecuniary orthodoxy at that. Economic Equilibrium is stasis. The temporal universe does not allow a stasis because it is process. Ideas are static…unless of course you cognite on the concept/idea of Grace which is BOTH idea AND process/action/policy COMPLETELY INTEGRATED. Integration is Wisdom. Grace is the pinnacle concept of Wisdom and BOTHNESS completely integrated.

Grace is abundant/abundance not scarcity, meagerness or an orthodoxy thereof. Grace being completely integrated bothness is/becomes a distinct third “thing” known as trinity/unity/oneness/wholeness and so escapes the orthodoxies of the opposing dualities from which it arose. Of course Grace can become an orthodoxy as well….if it stops looking and  integrating, but then it has fallen back into stasis and duality….which is not Grace.

John:  Steve, I can’t see how what you say applies to the practical argument I put forward.
I suspect the terms you use are your version of the most important aspect of Social Credit, the philosophy of the importance of the individual.
I haver no problem with that,  just with the highly improbable, un-thought-out way that some present the means of achieving it.
J R

Me:  Improbable and un-thought-out John? Everything, if it is to have integrity and be actually integrated/integrative proceeds from its philosophy, and likewise if policy is to be fully integrated with its stated philosophy…it must align LOGICALLY and CONCEPTUALLY with that philosophy. I’m just pointing out the alignment of economic theory and how it perfectly reflects the aspects of the concept of Grace, and also pointing out logical inconsistencies that some have with that. Conceptual and Cognitive dissonance is rife. People are confused about both economics and Wisdom. I’m just trying to get them to look at both and integrate them….because the goals of economics and the aspects of the concept of Grace actually DO align with each other.

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Me:  I believe you have asked me these questions before John. I think you have a misunderstanding that there are two types of discount policies. There is only one that makes any sense in a monetary economy and that is retail discount. The “just price” is kind of carry over language and thinking from the original non-monetary Distributists like Hillaire Belloc and G. K. Chesterton who although they are philosophically in attune with Social Credit were advanced and surpassed in monetary and economic thinking by Douglas. Douglas, despite the fact that he saw things much more clearly than anyone else in the early 20th century and today’s economists are only now coming back to partially re-discover his insights, was at the very beginnings of what is considered macro-economic thinking. Macro-economics is concerned with aggregates, aggregate numbers and their effects on the stability of economies. Douglas was brilliant and insightful, but, being at the beginning of that new way of looking at economics I don’t think even he actually had a clear idea of what the macro-economic tool of the Discount could have. Everyone lives within the horizon of their own culture and times. Not even Douglas could completely stepped outside of this or see the effects of the new discipline of macro-economics.

I have done as thorough an exegesis as I currently can of the core concept of Social Credit, namely Grace/Self Awareness/Consciousness (these three are synonymous) and as only a part of that exegesis shown the logical and reflective philosophical alignments between them and the classical goals of economics and economic theory. Douglas correctly pointed out that all policy should align with its philosophical counterpart. I’ve just taken it a couple of integrations higher as I have also integrated linguistics and trans-personal psychology/spirituality into that study.

As for how would I stop merchants from tacking some more onto their prices, that is one of the reasons why I advocate a large price deflationary discount percentage in order to compensate for that possibility/inevitability as well as to reverse the entropic/cost inflationary nature of the economy.

And as for the rich getting the larger numerical benefit…..such socialist envy is irrelevant if the individual is guaranteed a relatively abundant, satisfactory middle class income level as well as increasing leisure time to pursue his own interests and/or self development. So I don’t trouble myself with it.

As a one off and half assed event a jubilee could be fine with Finance. That’s what you’re seeing. Control is always more important than profit to them. Wait until you start awakening to, as you must, the necessity of breaking up their monopoly control of the creation of money (and even more importantly their claim to ownership of the credit they create) with actual continuing policy like a universal dividend and retail discount. Then is when they will denounce, slander and revile you.

Get Trump or whomever to implement Social Credit monetary policies and create the tri-level banking system recently posted here and all of the “skull and bones” debasement as well as the fractious, normally repressed and irrational racism, sexism, misogyny, fascism and socialism will go back in the closet of the mind….and we’ll actually have a system that serves us instead of one that we must slavishly serve.

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Liberals are deluded if they think they can run against the sentiment for actual change, and win. The thing to do is “get ahead of the curve” of that change with policies and structures that accomplish more of the rational, ethical and economically valid agendas of both the left and right….than either of their shallow and monopoly approved financial policies have given us….in almost a century of gridlock.

Me:  The answer to high college tuition and advanced education is inheritance and freedom via monetary Gifting….not re-distribution of already scarce income. Every US citizen is the heir to our cultural history of tremendous productive capacity handed down to us by our ancestors. This heritage is currently stolen from us by the creators and alleged owners of credit the private banks and the system they have hypnotized everyone with over the years. As the economy becomes more capital intensive and less labor intensive the costs of maintaining such a system become monetarily impossible and absurd. The only valid economic way this problem can be resolved is a universal and equal distribution of money IN ADDITION TO WHATEVER ONE MAKES VIA WORK FOR PAY. And as businesses will almost inevitably raise their prices as they see such new demand becoming available implementing a discount to prices by retail merchants of whatever product AFTER THEY HAVE DETERMINED THEIR BEST, COMPETITIVE PRICE, eliminates any inflation and can actually be utilized to create price deflation, AS EVERY CENT OF THOSE DISCOUNTS UNDER SUCH A PROGRAM WOULD BE REBATED BACK TO THOSE MERCHANTS SO THEY COULD BE WHOLE ON THEIR MARGINS AND OVERHEADS. Such inheritance and Gifting policies fit seamlessly within profit making systems and in fact enable modern high tech profit making economies to survive the increasingly trapped and impossible situation they find themselves in and that will inevitably result in either a vulgar fascism or socialism.

Please try to think about these matters, so that you don’t unconsciously bring about the historical political vices mentioned above. If you want profit making systems to survive and thrive you will recognize that monetary Distributism is the modern and logical answer.

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Me:  There is a continual and increasing scarcity of individual incomes being produced in ratio to costs/prices. Thus monetary Gifting is the only solution. Free your mind from outmoded monetary thinking and pay attention to people like Steve Keen, Ellen Brown and especially myself who has integrated money systems and economic theory under the concept that even Keen and Brown still have a relatively murky and unconscious notion of. My book “Wisdomics/Gracenomics: The New Economic and Monetary Theory For Modern Economies will soon be available.

wisdomicsblog.com

Mish:  Wants are indeed endless.
And the more you give away for free the less productive capacity there is.
Mish

Me:  In THEORY they are, in reality they AREN’T….except in the unbalanced.

As for productive capacity we already have way more than sufficient productive capacity to have the distributed income levels I posted about. And besides I’m not talking bout giving production away…only making it POSSIBLE to pay for what actually is produced.

Distributism is a monetary profit making system and theory that is not capitalism or socialism, but rather the best possible and most ethical integration of the best aspects/intentions of both.

wootendn:  “…monetary Gifting…”

Whatever the source of the ‘monetary gifting’, handing (or loaning) people money to buy something enables the sellers of that something to raise prices and salaries. That is precisely what has happened with college textbook and tuition prices over the past 40 years with Pell grants and student loans. Textbook prices, tuition prices, etc. have continually gone up faster than the CPI. Take away the Pell grants, student loans and other ‘monetary gifting’ and prices will drop.

Me:  You apparently didn’t read my policy of a rebated discount provided by retail merchants, or perhaps did not comprehend its workability and elimination of inflation.

Tony Bennet:  “Thus monetary Gifting is the only solution.”

You still haven’t stated source of $$s.

If you are printing, everyone will dump currency.

If you are taxing, owners of capital will flee.

Then what?

Me:  The source is a sovereign national agency whose mandated policies fill the gap between total individual incomes and total costs/prices thus making economic equilibrium a reality it cannot possibly be at present, and whose combined policies are the very definition and enactment of equilibrium, individual freedom and systemic free flowingness. A = A. Freedom and free flowingness is freedom and free flowingness.

Tony Bennet: 

Tax?

Printing?

One word.

One word only.

Me:  Costless Distribution….that fills the gap between incomes and costs/prices simultaneously produced. You can see it if you look at it…instead of refusing to look.

Crysangle:  To distribute something there has to be something to distribute. So I think you are talking redistribution instead, unless you are the generous type who has a warehouse full of wealth. Save us the trouble and just note down the address… you needn’t lock the door, the distribution process will happen effortlessly. Thank you, and I hope your idea works out for us all.

Signed,
People.

Me:  No, I’m talking direct distribution to the individual of a monthly dividend payment created ex nihilo by a federal agency with such specific mandated policies. Same with the discount policy. Thats money to purchase production, not production as a gift. Anyone who thinks we couldn’t match production to the increased income isn’t looking at things very closely or honestly.

There IS A SCARCITY OF INDIVIDUAL INCOMES, NOT PRODUCTICE CAPABILITY. The discount mechanism eliminates inflation and can even be used to create the holy (but without the discount unachievable) goal of price deflation in a profit making system. These policies are the salvation of profit making systems in high tech modern economies. You just have to look past a lot of your conditioning and prior false doctrines….that’s all.

part time nation: got news for u playa the vast majority of jobs created today (outside of the massive ever increasing public sector) is less than 20 hrs per week

Me:  Precisely, and that situation is only going to get worse, we just have to embrace it and then make the economy functional…..by Gifting a monthly payment of money to individuals and by a discount to retail prices so profit making systems can survive the onslaught of technological innovation and AI. Think about it.

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Me:  Cruz and Rubio make me want to throw up. Hilary makes me want to throw up too. Bernie doesn’t make me want to throw up it’s just that he’s not electable and even if he was he’d never get anything accomplished as president nyway. Trump gives me pause until I realize that if he tried to do anything unconstitutional he would be impeached, but he doesn’t make me want to throw up. Politics is poor theater, but at least Trump has a sliver of pragmatism and authenticity, and if presented with a sane and workable monetary solution might go for it. No one else has the smarts, the ability to thing outside of the box or the balls to do that.

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Me: Cruz is an incredible religious opportunist and fanatic, and he couldn’t possibly think an unorthodox religious, economic or monetary thought. Believe me I know the type. That plus Hilary would beat him like an unwanted step child. He’s a loser even more than Romney was, especially if he gets the nomination by robbing Trump who is much more deserving and at least entertained.

Old Guy: Tony do not waste your time with chdwr he has trolled his wisdom here for years and always changes his name because most of us know his wisdom is crock. Welfare is already in place chdwr just wants to never work a day in his life and get it all without putting forth any effort at all and we are all the same.

What he forget and has always forgot is people will never be equal in his utopia. But he think handing out freebies to all will solve everything.

Me:  Yes Tony don’t bother to think a new thought after all circumstances never change and we are after all living in the best possible circumstances possible. Never mind that the monopoly business model of finance dominates every other business model and nearly every individual in the economy, after all it means nothing that such a glaring monopolistic inconsistency like that exists in what is an alleged free market economy. Monopoly ideas/paradigms like loan only don’t matter as the economy becomes increasingly capital intensive and labor becomes less and less of a factor in production. No flaw in economic theory there, just move along, nothing to see and ignore the financier pulling all the levers behind the curtain. Soldier on with Old Guy’s HABITUALLY ORTHODOX, ESTABLISHMENT, NON-LOOKING, NON-EMPIRICAL OPINIONS. The fact that long economic downturns rhyme with wars means nothing to you, your family, your grand children or the rest of humanity and civilization, especially since in the next war no one’s life or productive capacity is safe. Yeah, I’m just an idiot utopian who wants to free individuals to BOTH work AND have at least a middle class level of income, who wants to save profit making systems from the collapse and likely vulgar fascism or socialism that a dominating Financial paradigm obviously and inevitably are taking us.

Me:  You guys are all for change when it comes to politics, but all for orthodox sameness so far as economic ideas are concerned. Politics without a genuinely new idea (not just a false reactionary lurch in the “opposite” direction) little to nothing will change even if Trump wins. You change the world with NEW ideas, INTEGRATIVE ideas (like work AND leisure, like Debt AND Gifting, like freedom AND service to the nation, like aligning philosophy AND policy instead of having only work as an ethic when technology and AI are trying to enable us to have a lot more leisure and also work) Try thinking a new thought instead of just the same old reactionary, orthodox, habitual and actually UNthinking regurgitation of old ideas.

Trump (and Sanders as well) are the inevitable result of obsessively contending orthodoxies neither of which offers actual solutions, but merely being pulled “three ways from the middle”. The economy is no longer functional and the prescriptions of orthodox economists and the disgusting ignorance and imagination of politicians will be of no avail. Here is a letter a Wallace K wrote to a politician in Canada that hits the nail right on the head:

Dear Tom,

Most assuredly, you do not have my support. The rational purpose of economics is not to create work but to create goods and services while rapidly eliminating labour as a cost factor of production through increasing efficiency. From this standpoint the only “good job” is a “dead job.” I mean to be just that blunt. Any nation that needs ninety-five per cent of its available work force to produce the needs, and wants, of its people must be functioning at stone-age efficiency. If a nation were to reach a position of requiring only ten per cent of its existing available work force, i.e., to reach a ninety per cent “unemployment” rate, it could, and should, then be enormously grateful for such a tremendous blessing—being so removed from the fear of scarcity.

Where do politicians derive the arrogant and errant notion or assumption that they are ordained to create work for their fellow humans so as to render society into a de-cultured human ant heap—a dispirited and disinherited charnel house? It derives from the Puritanical doctrine of Salvation through Works—the precise opposite of the Christian doctrine of Salvation through Grace. And whether or not one shares a belief in that particular religion It is the destructive policy that follows from the poisonous philosophy emanating from the Citadel of Finance—that agent of Mammon manifest by the international banking cartel clutching mankind by its strangling tentacles which encircle the earth in its death grip. And so we witness the fledgling “populist” NDP Government in the Province of Alberta seeking financial guidance from a former Governor of the Bank of Canada! It is, of course, well known that any significant Left revolution has almost always been facilitated by the assistance of International Finance.

Measures like “unemployment insurance” are just pathetic crumbs offered to the people, acting as a safety valve to dampen the likelihood of any popular uprising against the debt-imposed tyranny that has been foisted upon humanity by the enforcers of Puritanism through the instrumentation of fraudulent accounting and legerdemain.

My recent words to another correspondent: “So let’s fix it. Tell the politicians that the gig is up. We understand the fraud committed upon us by the age-old institutional system of legalized counterfeiting and its resultant grand larceny. The Banking System has appropriated the communal capital by means of its claim to ownership of the credit it creates to monetize the community’s wealth. We want it back in the form of falling prices, expanding incomes independent of any earned–and increasing leisure. Give it to us or we will do our utmost to ensure that you will not be occupying a seat in Parliament after the next elections.”

Sincerely
Wallace K